How can educators create meaningful conversations in the classroom and tackle challenging topics like race? We had the pleasure of speaking with two phenomenal teachers and authors, Matthew K and Jennifer Or, who share their insight on fostering open dialogue with students. As passionate educators, both of them have written books that focus on leading conversations in an inclusive and respectful manner, ensuring that students get the most out of their classes.
Our conversation delves into the diverse demographic of Matthew's school in Philadelphia and the importance of understanding boundaries as teachers. We discuss the need for safe spaces in the classroom and the power of reflection in creating these spaces. Jennifer and Matthew also share their experience co-authoring their book "We're Going to Keep on Talking," which aims to lead meaningful race conversations in elementary classrooms, and the personal motivations behind their collaboration.
As the discussion progresses, we touch on the importance of having conversations about race and racism with young people and how to provide a safe space for them to learn from each other. Jennifer and Matthew emphasize the importance of knowing when to draw the line in engaging in conversations about race and the significance of self-reflection for educators. Tune in to this engaging episode with our esteemed guests, Matthew K and Jennifer Or, and discover ways to develop meaningful conversations in your classroom.
Connect with Matthew Kay and Jennifer Orr:
Be sure to read their books:
How can educators create meaningful conversations in the classroom and tackle challenging topics like race? We had the pleasure of speaking with two phenomenal teachers and authors, Matthew K and Jennifer Or, who share their insight on fostering open dialogue with students. As passionate educators, both of them have written books that focus on leading conversations in an inclusive and respectful manner, ensuring that students get the most out of their classes.
Our conversation delves into the diverse demographic of Matthew's school in Philadelphia and the importance of understanding boundaries as teachers. We discuss the need for safe spaces in the classroom and the power of reflection in creating these spaces. Jennifer and Matthew also share their experience co-authoring their book "We're Going to Keep on Talking," which aims to lead meaningful race conversations in elementary classrooms, and the personal motivations behind their collaboration.
As the discussion progresses, we touch on the importance of having conversations about race and racism with young people and how to provide a safe space for them to learn from each other. Jennifer and Matthew emphasize the importance of knowing when to draw the line in engaging in conversations about race and the significance of self-reflection for educators. Tune in to this engaging episode with our esteemed guests, Matthew K and Jennifer Or, and discover ways to develop meaningful conversations in your classroom.
Connect with Matthew Kay and Jennifer Orr:
Be sure to read their books:
Welcome to SEL in EDU.
Speaker 2:Where we discuss all things social and emotional in education. I'm Krista And I'm Craig And we are your host on this journey.
Speaker 1:This podcast is created in partnership with Pennsylvania ASCD. Hello, sel and EDU family. We hope you're doing well. Craig and I are incredibly excited to have two amazing educators and friends with us today. But first, craig, how are you doing? You're coming back from a little getaway.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i had an opportunity to go to Tulum, which was pretty, pretty amazing. I mean, the weather was 80 degrees every day, which was pretty amazing, and we also had an opportunity to enjoy a little bit of the beach. Still had to work, but I didn't read six books, which was cool.
Speaker 1:Really Whoa Okay so we'll check in about what books you've read.
Speaker 2:Oh, I don't know if you're going to read the book's eyes already Now I'm going to say that they are really about adult SEL. I understand.
Speaker 3:Yep.
Speaker 1:You'll have two authors with us today, so this is really exciting, and I've been digging through books these last couple months, and so we're excited about that. Today we have with us Matthew K and Jennifer or, and let's take a moment to introduce them.
Speaker 2:All right. So we have a Matthew K, proud product of Philadelphia's public schools. I found a teacher at the science leadership Academy. He's a graduate of Westchester University, holds a master's in leadership with a principal certificate from California University of Pennsylvania How amazing. At SLA he teaches innovative inquiry driven from project based curriculum. He's a founder and executive director, philly Slam Lee, and this is a really incredible organization that shows people the power of their voices through weekly spoken word competition. Pretty though Okay, psl is the only season long school based land culturally in the US.
Speaker 2:Matthew believes deeply in the importance of earnest and mindful classroom conversations about race. Furthermore, he believes that any teacher willing to put the hard work of reflection can become a better discussion leader through the practice of the ski discrete, not this ski, i'm thinking about ribs skills And, driven by these convictions, he's passionate about designing professional development that teachers find valuable. He is the author of not light but fire How to leave meaningful conversations in the secondary classroom, and he co authored an incredible book. We're going to keep on talking how to leave meaningful race conversations in the elementary classroom.
Speaker 1:We also have Matt's co author to. We're going to keep on talking. Jennifer, or Jen, is an elementary school teacher in the suburbs of Washington DC. She has taught for over two decades in almost every elementary grade at schools serving highly diverse populations. She has experienced with students who are learning English in special education and advanced academic programs and from military families. Throughout her career, she has achieved and renewed national board certification, wrote articles about technology and education, literacy, math, questioning and more. She has also presented at state and national conferences on the same topics. Jen is a member of a CDs emerging leader class of 2013 and in 2012. She won the KL bitter award from ISTI. She is also the author of demystifying discussion how to teach and assess academic conversation skills in grades K to five. Welcome, jen and Matt. We are so happy to have you with us. Thanks.
Speaker 1:One of the things I've noticed with your writings is that, whether you've written an ASED at leadership article, a lot of it is reflective of your own practices in your own work with students, and that's one of the things that has really drawn me to the work that you do, and you both are very passionate about how we can help our students become better conversationalists And, matt, i think you call it dialogic teachers, becoming a dialogic teacher. Did I say that correctly? Yes, okay, and that's something I look back on as a former high school teacher. If I only would have spent more time prepping the high quality questions, really looking at how I was facilitating opportunities for students to talk to each other, i think. I think I missed the boat there, and so I'm hoping that either one of you could talk to what has led you to one. Really focus on the conversational pieces in your classroom And how does that impact the work that you do as writers?
Speaker 3:For me. I think I like talking to kids about books. That's why I'm teaching kids English And so it came pretty naturally. I could pretend that it was something else, but it's just like that's the fun part of my job And it's what I'm good at. And then, but once the kids, i realized that the kids actually respond more authentically to what I am teaching them when we are talking about it.
Speaker 3:And I think, as simple as that sounds, it's actually it's hard work and it's complex work trying to design those conversations so that 14, 15, 16-year-old kids find a text interesting or find a text compelling. And sometimes, when it is not on the surface level interesting or compelling, but then through a discussion you can open it, it's like whoa, i didn't even see that and all that kind of stuff. And also, even with stuff that they naturally like even more so, helping them how, helping to give them the tools to engage it thoughtfully and to be social around the book that they find interesting or the subject area they find interesting. Selfishly, it's because I like talking about books with kids, but in doing that I realized that that actually allowed them to get the most out of our English class. So that's where I'm coming from.
Speaker 4:And I'm not sure that Matt and I have ever talked about this, so it's really interesting to realize that. I think that's probably where I come from too. People walk into my classroom and the first thing they notice is the ridiculous number of books around our classroom. I love to share books with kids and I love to hear their thoughts on them and talk about them And, like Matt, i think over time I started seeing how deep those conversations could become, how powerful those conversations could become, the kinds of things kids, even young, five, six, seven-year-old kids see in books and recognize in books, and the questions it means they end up asking.
Speaker 4:I feel like there could be kind of a graph of my 25 years of teaching, of how much time I talk in the class versus how much time kids talk in the class, and that graph would cross over. And as I came, i've come to realize how much more important it is for them, for each individual kid, to talk through their understanding and to share their thoughts, and then for their peers to hear them instead of hearing me. They learn so much more from each other than they do from me, and so it comes down to the kind of thing Matt was saying about how do you plan for those conversations, how do you set kids up for that, so that you aren't really the one in the midst as much? you're there and you are a crucial force, but you're a quieter force.
Speaker 2:One of the things that I am curious about, especially in the political environment that we're in, and I understand that we have political bodies. Being in education every day is a political act in my opinion, but I do. I do have curiosities on what's the context of where you are serving in regards to your own you know school community, how it's situated more broadly, statewide or nationally, so people have a good sense of how are you able to make these leaps and do this incredible work with young people and educators in your sphere?
Speaker 4:or, for those who may not know, I think I'm kind of in an interesting situation. Matt and I actually were just talking about this recently when we were in Philly together, because I teach in Northern Virginia. Virginia currently is on a swing of the more restrictive move around what we can and can't teach and what books we can share, and as a state we're becoming more and more restrictive at the moment. My own district, on the other hand, is far more inclusive and far more culturally responsive, so my district is supportive while the state is pushing back. And then my own school within my district is a really odd mix because it's 100% military affiliated families. Every kid in our school has at least one active duty family member, and so they live on post, on the Army post. So we get a pretty wide range of people who've had a wide range of different experiences, some who've lived abroad, some who've lived. I mean, all of them have lived in a variety of places, even the kids by the time we see them.
Speaker 4:So it is definitely something that is always on my mind with that weird mix of school, district and state influences and how they're impacting us, and one of the things that I've always thought two things, really, that I'm always thoughtful about. One is communicating with families, building those relationships with families so that when something happens that might seem iffy to them, we already have that relationship and they can come to me and we can have a conversation about it. And it doesn't have to be a big, doesn't have to hit the newspapers. But the other piece is always knowing that everything I'm doing is linked to our standards. And so if there's a family that's like, why are there you doing this? I can point straight to the state standard and our county standard. That is the reason I am teaching what I'm teaching.
Speaker 3:Yeah, i teach in Philly at a magnet school called Science Leadership Academy and we've been drawing kids from all over the city, pretty politically diverse Once one understands that we are in Philadelphia. So being in Philadelphia skews us a certain way, but within that context we get different neighborhoods, have different politics and different classes, have different policies. There are some. We are one of the most diverse, if not the most diverse, school in the city. Being like it's kind of like our racial makeup, our socioeconomic makeup, like we have kids who are wealthy and kids who are poor, we have kids who are black. We have got a mix that actually doesn't exist that much in Philly. There are a couple, but we are not. Often with my freshman I'm saying look to your left, look to your right for how many of you is this new? and all of the hands go up Like it's not. So that's the context that I teach in.
Speaker 3:Thankfully, i'm not facing on the state level some of the restrictive things that we're seeing around the country, and so I'll always own that privilege. That's something that something I've always, you know, treat as a privilege that can be taken away at any time, and it's actually part of a responsibility that I feel like I have, and part of what drives me to do this kind of writing and do this kind of work with teachers is kind of like there are some things that are, you know, not easy but simple for me. There's some things that are kind of simple for me And it's my job, if I'm given that privilege, to try to make it a little simpler for somebody else, like if I get to kind of play around and learn what works and what doesn't work, if I can save someone else from making some of the same mistakes in places where they might have bigger consequences than what I faced. I've kind of feel responsible, especially when I travel around. I'm like I just want to do something useful to you, for you, so that you could do it, and I co-sign everything that Jen says. I think one thing about having your all, all your eyes dotted and all of your T's crossed and communicating. I'm I'm trying to.
Speaker 3:You know, whenever asked about this, i'm telling people to avoid cowboy teaching as much as you can, because you're really hard to support if you're the type to shut your door and do whatever you want. Like it's kind of hard for ask for your admin to have your back. If you're that type, it's like well, i can't support you. I don't know what you're doing. I do want me to stand in front of you if you're not what you're doing, and it's hard for you. And also, you know oftentimes, you know it's hard to hear but sometimes parents, even if their intentions are wrong, they are right about the thing that you are doing.
Speaker 3:Like you did it poorly, You did not do it well And you were proselytizing political beliefs. You weren't teaching. Like there's and there is a difference. Like I think that there's a. You were not being responsible with the authority and power that you have in the classroom. They are wrong in like they have gone an extra. Like the parents are not responsible for the extra. Like the parents might take an extra step because of something Fox News told them right, but that doesn't make you right. Like you may you're in your implementation, stuff like that. So I'm really against cowboy shoot from the hip. Like you know, i do me and I do it alone. Type type discussion facilitation, because you make it really hard to defend and support you.
Speaker 1:I think that you talk a little bit about that in one of your ASCD articles that really stuck with me that I use in some of the work I do, and I believe it was titled Our House, our Rules.
Speaker 1:It was just know what, and sometimes I call them like the black magic marker or Sharpie lines you know the big like, what are the boundaries and where you know, and keeping that door open and letting people know what's happening, but knowing what my admin will support me on and what is going to be in the best interest of the students versus, like what you said, personalizing and really stretching the limits of what we should be doing as teachers.
Speaker 1:One of the quotes that I was thinking of when I heard both of you talking and I saw it somewhere, but it said if we don't ever talk about race, gender, religion, something, we're never going to learn how to talk about it.
Speaker 1:And then we end up with cases, like we all do, like we often see in the news, where there's politicians or movie stars or sports players or all these people who have elevated status that our kids are looking to, not being able to have respectful dialogue with each other. And I suspect that in the book that you have for the classroom, for secondary classrooms more so. There's a lot of effort that's put into creating that safe space and moving it beyond just saying this is a safe space. Because that's not enough And I'm wondering if both of you could talk to either in the not light but fire or your new book coming out in, what advice would you give to classroom teachers who are looking to have meaningful race dialogue and allow students to have a safe space in which to have those conversations in a way that is inclusive and respectful?
Speaker 3:If I were to narrow it to one habit, it would be reflection. If you are trying something, do you have a methodology to figuring out if it's working or not. I think that's the big thing Whenever you're trying right, and that works in a lot of, in a pedagogical sense, in many ways. But with relationship building, with everything else, like I think they trust me, how do I know I think they feel safe? how do I know I think they feel welcome? how do I know, like having the habit of asking yourself if the thing you're doing is working, which doesn't have to come with a lack of self-confidence, like you be, like I think it's working and I'm pretty sure. Like I want confidence, i want swag.
Speaker 3:I think every teacher should have a little bit of swag. Like you're a boss, like you run that room, but at the same time, having just not making assumptions about whether something is working, especially on the more interpersonal stuff. Like, especially, like I think they feel safe. I think do I have conversations with them to find out? Have I have journal prompts? Like are there things that they are doing to show me that this thing is working? If I were to narrow it, it would be that one thing Like have reflection about the things you're doing. Ba, not a throwaway habit, but like a right, like a centered habit in your practice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I know that was a hard part. And, jen, i'm kicking this over to you too I have so many bookmarked spaces in your book to go back to that. It's not a one-time read and you're like, oh, i've got this. Like there are so many reflective habits to go in and to practice and to come back, and so I know that was a difficult piece to narrow that down to maybe just one, and I don't want people to miss the other opportunities and strategies and ideas that are in the book. And, jen, what could you maybe add to that that could also help for looking at our younger learners.
Speaker 4:Honestly, i would have said exactly the same thing, which is not shocking. I wasn't really sure what that would say because, like you, i've read Not Light But Fire, and I've read it a number of times at this point And there are so many things in there, in the compliments, in all of those pieces of House Talk, that build that community that allows this to happen. Things that are done in elementary school maybe not the exact same things, but the ways that that community is built, that those relationships are built, are also important. But they're all really fragile without that reflection.
Speaker 4:Without that reflection, you can do all of that work and think you're doing great and not see the holes or the gaps or the problems or the kid that this isn't working for, and that's right. It doesn't make you, it doesn't suggest that you aren't good at what you're doing. In fact, i think the best teachers are the ones who spend the most time thinking was that interaction with that kid the one that it should have been? Did I meet that kid's needs in that moment? Did that prompt really sit with kids, or did I push things too far in one direction? So that reflection is kind of the foundation of everything else. Everything else fails without that piece.
Speaker 2:Just to kind of add on to what you shared. How do you know for each of you that all that you have built in regards to the structures and the culture building that you do day in and day out, that your class is actually thriving and having these really interesting conversations around race and maybe gender and other things? So when do you know? okay, yep, all of the things that I have tried to infuse into the experience is now manifest.
Speaker 3:I think for me. I was just talking to my student teachers co-op today about this. It's what I hear from the kids as far as evidence that they're listening to each other. I think the second I hear building off so and so's point. I want to build on what so and so says. Or that's what so and so said yesterday, that's what so and so said last week And I don't know where they got this from because I have sent in stars.
Speaker 3:But my kids this year have started saying to so and so's point. I'm like where'd you hear that He's 14-year-old kid to so and so's point. But I think it's clearly they heard. Maybe they heard it in another class or something like that. But that to me is real time evidence. If everyone is speaking to me, i have growth to do because listening is everything for me, and so if everyone's listening to, if everyone just feels like they're just sharing with me, then that doesn't mean I'm doing poorly. It just means like I need to and so and that's really measurable and really concrete, like if I never hear that phrase, then they're not doing the thing I want them to do and I need to be better.
Speaker 4:I think that's a huge thing to hear kids, because that that listening is crucial. There's such a sense of the community is so clear when kids are really listening to each other. With young kids That looking to the teacher thing is such a natural. You know, that's what they've been doing since they were small. They looked the adults in the room And so trying to get away from that can be really hard. In some ways it's a lot easier if we start it with kindergarteners. You know, if this is a school that's focused on this and it starts in kindergarten, by the time I see them in third grade I don't have to think about it. But if it hasn't happened, you know, in my school, where we have a 40% turnover rate every year, it doesn't matter if we start in kindergarten. I'm still gonna have a lot of kids who haven't done it.
Speaker 4:I work really hard to kind of step out of the conversations early on.
Speaker 4:I don't step out, but I try to step out visually for them.
Speaker 4:So if they're all seated in a circle on the carpet, i'm outside of the circle, i'm right there where I can be a part of things when needed, when I want to prompt, when I want to nudge when I want to ask a new question And I keep a conversation map of who is speaking when and kind of the things they're saying, which helps me see too is everybody speaking And they're not all going to speak.
Speaker 4:I don't expect them all to speak. Some of them are going to be quiet and just taking it in. But I try to be watching those kids too to see do they look uncomfortable? Eight year olds do not hide that well, like if I'm really watching, you know the ones who are speaking I can hear it, but the ones who aren't, i need to be watching their faces to see how is this feeling to them? And maybe they're having an off day. So I'm not going to base it just on once, but it gives me a clue of this is a kid I need to check in with and see what's going on If they don't seem to be engaged or don't seem to be comfortable with the conversations that are happening.
Speaker 1:Loving what you both just said, because just a couple days ago I was working with staff in a professional development there were 15 of us And I was hyper aware after reading those chapters about where are people looking into whom are they talking? And I realized that the assistant principal was talking, but he kept kind of looking over to me And I remembered about that part being written in the book And so and I was also to Jen's point thinking, okay, everybody in this group, actually all 15 people except for one, has shared their thought and opinion about what it was that we were talking about. I wonder. And so I did a check in on that one teacher who is generally more quiet, but you know, what you have to say is really important. So you know, please feel free if there is something to share. And she did later.
Speaker 1:But I feel that the pieces that you've put here into this book work for children, but also for us as adults, and I know I'm constantly working on trying to be a better listener because it's not just what we say. But, as you said, matt, how are we truly hearing somebody? and building upon that, because that's when the real magic happens. And so, speaking of magic happening. I just wanted to have that Because I was like, oh, like, i've been applying this just recently And so I'm loving this When the magic is happening. Tell me about the process between both of you writing this elementary, this book for the elementary students, because, if I remember correctly, jen, like you were not in the same space while you were writing this, and so I'd love to know about that process and what that looked like and felt like for both of you.
Speaker 4:Okay, before we say that though I have to add on to what you just said about that realization of how this impacts us all I couldn't possibly have co-authored we're going to keep on talking if I hadn't read not light but fire multiple times.
Speaker 4:I read that book and immediately started thinking about what that meant for me in an elementary school classroom, as well as what that meant for me and just engaging in conversations.
Speaker 4:This work I was doing with kids before, but I wasn't doing anywhere near as well until I read Matt's book.
Speaker 4:So that was such a shift for me And the reason that my copy of it's falling apart and I had to get new ones, because, even as he was writing about high school students and the thing about the book that's so wonderful is that the kids' voices are so strong in it And you can hear them, and so, even though they were so much older than the students I was teaching because when the book came out, oh, i was probably teaching third graders, but still good distance between them it had a lot of power to me to think about what that looked like to do this kind of work in the classroom, and so I was really excited when Matt first reached out because I know not every elementary teacher felt like me and felt like they could take those middle high school voices and bring them into their elementary classroom.
Speaker 4:But having those student voices was such a crucial piece of the work which I'll let Matt talk about because this journey began obviously with him but I just feel like it needs to be stated that not only was not light but fire the emphasis for all of this anyway, but it's the only reason I was in a position to co-author this book.
Speaker 1:I do need to go in, though, and say I know you and how reflective you are and I love everything that you post, and so I think there were many different reasons, and I'm sorry I'm speaking. I don't mean to speak for you, matt, but I think you picked the perfect person to co-author. Oh, i know.
Speaker 3:I'm well aware of that. Well, i think you know they asked me after not light had a little bit of success, which still blows my mind. They asked you're going to write another book? and the former, the Tori Bachman, was my publisher as I was writing Not Light. And then, when she moved on, bill Varner came over and he finished Not Light with me. That process And him and Dan Tobin and Stan House, both of them kept bugging me when you were writing another book, when you were writing that book, and I kept telling them no, no, no, no.
Speaker 3:Like I don't have any ideas And the only thing I could think of because I say what I don't want to do is like if I have a gift for writing, that's great, but that's not going to pass. Like elementary teachers, secondary teachers, educated are a tough crowd and writing talent does not mean anything. Like if you don't have anything to say, you don't have anything to say. And so I say you're not going to catch me slipping like just writing because I can write, and all of a sudden I'm not putting anything of use And so I just couldn't think of anything And it was a back burner thing. But what I kept coming back to mind is every time I went to go speak and I was blessed to go speak all around the country, i still am And when I'm signing books and talking to people afterwards or at a PD, at a school, something, often they come up to me and says is there an elementary version of this? And what I would always say in response was like I wanted to lean heavily into my own experience writing this book and I teach high schools And, again, teachers are a tough crowd And the worst last thing I wanted to do is try to get them with an oaky-doke and like pretend ninth grade, nine-year-old voices and pretend eight-year-old. But I guess not. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to be honest and I'm going to be real with who I am. Like it's the same thing why they would ask me, by the way, about, like, science class and math class, that kind of stuff. I'm going to ask you to do a little bit of the work and make a comparison, because I'm only going to use my experience. Like I'm going to keep it 100 with everybody and use my experience, but it just kept sticking with me And I kind of thought that folks would. I wanted to suggest it to do with Jen just described. Right, you like take it and then try to find what's useful there and see if there's any junior versions there and see if there's anything that is like you know and but that didn't feel qualified to make that leap because that's not my training, like I'm not, it's not. I have a secondary degree. I'm not ready, but the more I thought about it, the more I kind of to take, take.
Speaker 3:I started taking these requests even more and more seriously because I could understand I leaned so heavily on storytelling and not like, and it's one thing to look at the pedagogical stuff and the tips and try to make junior versions, but hearing voices, like hearing third grade voices, hearing an exchange between second graders, like that is a bigger leap, if that makes sense. Like what is this conversation actually sound like, though? Like what does it sound? like a Nespens? and once I started thinking about that, that's when the idea started to crystallize. I said I could co-author an elementary book with the elementary teacher, and but of course it would have to be someone with a lot of games. And that's where I got stuck just thinking, just like I got to find someone with a lot of games and then some weird I don't know where it was, but it clicked because I remember Jen from Educon And I remember Jen from just seeing on social media stuff like that. But I remember from Educon and I'm like I think she's an elementary like I knew she was a good educator, i knew she had good stuff to say, but I think, specifically she was an elementary teacher And then I like did a little bit of research and kind of read her book and looked around and I said, oh, she's a writer, writer, okay, we can do this.
Speaker 3:And then so I sent her a Twitter message And I was you know, do you want to? you know, i think I was kind of vague. I was like you want to? like? so some people have wanted this and would you be interested in discussing this, you know, and then she cut to it. So I'm like well, i kind of mean, write a book with me, do you want to write a book with me? So that's where that came from. But just, it's people asking It's not, it wasn't. I think that's the one thing I want to keep saying is like that is the question that I get asked more than anything else, like when is there going to be elementary version of this. When you write elementary version, that was the far and away, and so I'm very happy to be able. I'm honored that they would ask it because that means a lot to me, but then, at the same, i'm happy. I'm even happier that I'm able to point to something now when I'm asked that question.
Speaker 2:One of the things I'm curious about. I'm making a leap here and thinking that you spent a couple of years right in this book, right, and there have been so many incidents that have taken place racially across the nation, and so I'm curious how, what has been like the ongoing conversations you've had in regards to talking about race and navigating race, as to professionals who made a decision to co-author a book that will be instrumental for so many people across the globe, or trying to figure out how can I have a conversation with someone who might be ethically or racially different from who I am, have different beliefs and have been socialized in a particular way? So how have you both been able to continue these ongoing conversations and what would be your advice to educators who will listen to this and will read your books on? how do I have conversations with my colleagues about race and still be able to do this great work career on behalf of children?
Speaker 3:I don't want to answer for Jen, but as far as not, like came out in 2018, right. And then 2020 happened, and so it already like that timing was wild in and of itself, just like having something out there already. And then this happens and I just put to the test, like, does this work? And then if it was trash, they would have told me right quick and in a hurry because, like, all of a sudden, people were having these things over zoom and it was, like, you know, put up or shut up. So, but I will say, though I'm again I don't want to speak for Jen, but I wrote kind of angry, like I'm angry, Like I this, this, we're going to keep on talking is a response.
Speaker 3:Like when I got dragged through the mud, when I got, like you know all that situation with you know people, with Fox News coming after me, all that kind of stuff and all that kind of junk for a few days, and I'm getting threats and all these n words and my emails and all that kind of stuff. Like when I went through all that, like it really pissed me off And like I'm like I want to work, is like, if you think you're going to shake me off of supporting teachers. You have something else coming. Like this is not how I'm built, it's not this, this is not what it is, so I will. I'm not going to hold you.
Speaker 3:Like that whole idea of writing an elementary book is a response to, to hate to me. Like it was kind of like I see you world and nah. Like if there is somebody in Florida, in Texas, in Virginia, in Georgia, who has the guts to have a race conversation with their kids, i'm going to try to make their life easy, like as easy as I can, like I'm going to try to help them, and so, and his response like I feel I take that personally, you know like that's a real I. I will admit that my blood is up on this issue. Like this is something that I am. I am I wrote angry, i edited angry, i speak angry, like I'm angry at the state of the world, but I'm also like I'm very blessed that I have the opportunity to actually, you know, work with Jen and put something out there that elementary teachers can use, instead of just like screaming in the wind and tweeting. Like I actually get to put something in people's hands that actually, you know might be useful.
Speaker 4:And I don't think that's going to stop us from shouting into the wind and tweeting to. It is nice to feel productive. I will say a couple of things. One that that for a long time as we worked on the book, we kept referring to it as not light but fire junior. Matt said something earlier about a junior version of it and I kind of chuckled because we did. It was an LBF junior for probably a year and a half of the work we were doing And in my head it's still kind of not light but fire junior. But when we started talking about a title I said I really love that not light has this quote that is the reason for the title from Frederick Douglass and I'd love something similar and I had been thinking kind of Ida B Wells or of someone else who had some piece of education. Or. And Matt started looking into the Birmingham Children's March and the songs that the kids sang. And we're going to keep on talking comes from one of those protest songs And I liked it. But the more I thought about it, the more it feels like it does exactly what Matt is saying right now. It's saying we're not stopping, we're going to keep on talking, we're going to keep kids talking. We're going to keep bringing this to the forefront. This is going to keep coming And I love that about it. I love that it seems kind of innocuous, but when you really stop to think about it it's kind of in your face. Title, which is true of not light but fire as well. So I love that that fit.
Speaker 4:The other thing I'll say, craig, to your initial question about all of the events that happened and how often these skills are needed. Like Matt, i'm angry and I don't have a lot of patience when it comes to these conversations with colleagues. If they are not able to see reality and not able to understand, i'm unlikely to engage in. Very often it's died because it won't be pretty. But when it comes to conversations with kids ever since we started talking about this book probably even before that but I get messages from people when things happen Are you talking to your kids about this? Are you going to have your kids talk about this? And my response is always it's going to depend on the kids. If the kids aren't already talking about it, i'm not going to talk about it. I'm not going to bring up a topic of conversation just because it's hot in the news And Matt wrote about this and not light and called them pop up conversations, this idea of something that's happening, that's hot, that everybody's talking about.
Speaker 4:When we jump into those conversations, especially with young kids and high schoolers are still relatively young in all of this we make a lot of errors because we're not prepared And so I avoid them like the plague with my students. But I listen, so if my kids come in talking about something, i'm going to be ready for it, i'm going to have it in my head. But I messed up on 9 11 as a, as a fairly young teacher, in all the thinking I did about how to help my kids after that day. I was unprepared for the, for the one big thing that came up, which was a Sikh student in fourth grade, and the fourth graders at the time we literally live five taught. My school was five miles from the Pentagon. They couldn't have been removed from this in any way. But this little Sikh boy came in and the first thing he said as we sat down for morning meeting was my people did this And I was deeply unprepared for the idea that a fourth grader was going to already have gotten the message of that racial religious attack.
Speaker 4:We had the 12th off. I should. It's not as if that wasn't in the news. It's not as if I didn't see it happening. We just hadn't crossed my mind that my kids were seeing it happening and I wasn't prepared for it. So when those things happen in the news, i'm talking to a lot of people, but I'm not talking to my kids, unless they're talking about it.
Speaker 3:I want to add something to add on the thread that Jen was talking about With adults. I was just saying this. In Ohio a couple of days ago, someone came up to me, really concerned about how do we have conversations with our colleagues and other adults. I had a good little concern These people. Every time I travel, i'm amazed and humbled by how hard people are working, really hard. They're making their little book clubs and committees and working.
Speaker 3:I'm always in ruby red scenarios. They're in spaces that are in deep mega country. They're still out there with three teachers having a little committee trying to do a little something. I'm like look at y'all, i'm in a space where I'm touched by that. I see it all over the country.
Speaker 3:This is not one of those scenarios, but this is someone who's frustrated trying to talk to adults in the room and try to who don't feel like they need to get better at these conversations. I wanted to do something to take the pressure off of her shoulders and be like. I looked at her and chuckling. I'm like do you want him leading race conversations with students? Do you want him? She was like actually no. I'm like does he have the requisite kindness? Is he a thinker? Is it someone who and the point being like, sometimes I want that person to just be teaching Shakespeare They can't be leading this stuff because they lack the game, they don't have the capacity, they don't have the requisite kindness habits of mind and they're not willing to get better.
Speaker 3:Some people are judged on the standard of do less harm. If you are someone who's really, if you are that tight, i'm cool with you being you. Don't do racist things to kids. That's where your line is Don't do racist things to kids. Don't do harm. Don't do that. It's all right if you don't.
Speaker 3:I think sometimes we spend so much energy I lead every single presentation with some version of the statement. We waste so much energy trying to convince people who don't want to be convinced. That is not the target audience for not light. That's not the target audience for we're going to keep on talking. I don't care about them. I want them to do less harm.
Speaker 3:I hear one of these books is written to convince someone to start discussing race with their students. They can keep their money. I don't want their money. It's for people like Jen, like me, who are not perfect, who make a lot of mistakes but are game, and who are down and want to advice or tips and tricks or some stuff that worked, and please don't do that. It doesn't work That kind of stuff. But those other people suck up too much energy. There's so much else they can read. There's so much else they can watch. Both of us are very good. We don't have anything to tell them.
Speaker 3:I think every time I say that there's a little bit of pressure, i can see the pressure come off of some people. I'm like you don't got to convince Joe down the corner to have race conversations with the students. Let Joe teach history the way he teach in history. Try to get Joe to lie less. You know what I mean, but it's not like you don't have to have Joe on this level. You get on this level. You be the teacher who's doing this, but don't worry about him. I'm really not about that. Convincing people How you look in 2023, still needing to be convinced that kids need to talk about race in the classroom. Where you been, what are you doing? It's willful at this point, At this point, if you still don't. You've made a decision. You lived in this world and you're like no, i have no time for you. You're not worth any of our energy.
Speaker 4:That was really eye-opening for me when Matt said that to me as we started working on the book. Though We're not writing this for people who aren't on board yet, We're writing this to help people who are already trying it, who are wanting to try it. That was a really helpful way for me to think about the work we were doing.
Speaker 1:What you're saying reminds me of conversations I've had with teenagers, whether it was in the classroom or my own kids or kids I still interact with in schools I'm working with where they'll say where's that line? where if I have a friend that is not seeing things or is not standing up for me or is engaging in this, i said you need to find what that is for you. That's why I refer to it as my black magic marker sharpie line, because I can think I have like, oh, but I can move it or erase it. I come back to this James Baldwin quote. I pulled it up here because it's so powerful to me that we can disagree and still love each other, unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist. For me, that's where you know what We're not going to be seeing eye to eye You do. You Don't go out and hurt, don't actively hurt people, but if you are like, i need to say something And if I am doing that, i need people to tell me so I can fix it and be a better human.
Speaker 1:That's, i think, this process, and I love that this other book is coming out, because I have nieces and nephews who are younger and they're having convert. They want to have these conversations. They're seeing the television, they're needing a safe person who can guide them and how to learn not necessarily just from that person, like you both have said, but to learn from each other and their experiences and learn how to have those conversations in a respectful way. And that ties for me back to social emotional learning, let alone when we're talking about race and ethnicity. That's about our identity, that's our self awareness, and we all have a right to be authentically ourselves in a space, and so you've provided this really amazing framework to allow educators to get better at creating that space for people.
Speaker 1:So I'm so I've already preordered the book. You can preorder the book. It's going to be linked in after this as the resources, as well as a ton of other information that I know Craig is going to be asking you about after his very special question. So if you haven't heard any SEL and EDU podcast yet, craig's about to drop it.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's no pressure, kristen, but the question that we love to ask our guests what do you consider to be your superpower?
Speaker 1:All right, i'll jump in. These are the times. I wish that we still did the video, because I love seeing people's facial expressions.
Speaker 4:I'm going to go back to something Matt talked about earlier, though, because it is the thing that has made me who I am, i think is that reflection piece. It's the fact that and sometimes I think it's a bit of an obsession and maybe I need to learn to let it go sometimes but that I am constantly reflecting And, as a result, i'm constantly, i hope, improving. And I'm talking about like this comes down to make sure it drives my family crazy. occasionally, when I'm like well, i've been thinking about this and I think it would work better if we moved these things around, because this would be a better way to do this. We're like, oh, i've been going to work this way, but actually, if I stop, like there's constant reflection and I think it makes my life better and I'd like to think it makes people around me better, but they might disagree with me.
Speaker 3:I'm really stubborn. I think in a way that is good, like if I were to frame it like a superpower, like I'm really lax on so many things. But I feel like if I put my mind to something like as far as putting something like this put together, like we're going to do it, like like we are going to do it, we're going to stay to the grindstone and we're going to do it, and I'll be damned if somebody tells me we not going to do it, and then somebody might try to scare me or whatever, like this is not going to be. I think that's like I am not. I don't take no easily when it comes to being about this kind of business And I think that I think that has served well on this project and I hope I'm able to hold on to that.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you both for that. So I believe I'm supposed to ask the question of when people are. I mean, you both are already famous, but for those who are going to listen to this podcast and our light, I am on fire, I'm ready. I would love to figure out how I can be connected to both Jen and Matt. How do people find you or connect with you? DM you so that it can continue the conversation.
Speaker 3:I think Jen and I will put together a website, for we're going to keep on talking, but not likecom. Is that website I put together? It's just some old videos and like stuff like that. You know, podcast interviews, all that kind of stuff. But I think the most important thing for me is just straight up email info and not likecom. You're going to hit me up like right away.
Speaker 3:One of the best things about the past like three years of my life, four years of my life, has it been five? Well, it's like 2018. Yeah, this is the video. One of the best things about the last few years of my life is that my inbox is teachers from around the country with unit plans, like questions is like so am I asked this and so and I keep telling it at every PD. I'm like like I'm a nerd about this stuff. You're not bothering me, i might not get back too fast, but it's a, you know, but I like it's refreshing. You know what I mean That like people are out there doing you know people are out there doing this stuff. You know it can get kind of bleak And then you're thinking, well, wait a minute. Like my inbox says that there are hundreds of teachers right now, in this moment, about to lead a conversation tomorrow. Like, like, like, there's a big. Those are the ones that just reached out to me. So, like like it's, it's refreshing. So my email address info and not likecom just pitting me up.
Speaker 4:But don't let Matt sell short. His website not. Lightcom is a fabulous website And I'm excited to create something together because I'm going to learn a lot in that process And you'll and everything you need of Matt is there, which is all the ways to contact, which is great. I have Jen orcom And I'm going to get myself together and actually do some work on it, now that we're really finishing up this book and I have a little more time on my hands.
Speaker 1:I got to add in, jen, your website has all of your blog posts that reflect on all of the things that have happened in your classrooms, and so that is a wealth of resource and information as well, and I was laughing, too, with you when Matt's like, oh, it's just something up there, but we are going to link to both of your ISCD columns. We've linked out to your books, all of the books that you've written so far, so that people can go into the resources and be able to add them to their Amazon cart or their nearest local library.
Speaker 4:Sounds good. Awesome Thanks.
Speaker 2:All right, sel and EDU family. It has been absolutely incredible. We have a powerhouse duo who has joined us and set us ablaze, and you have to check out their new book when it comes out, and it's coming out soon. So you're like, okay, well, craig, what's the title of the book? which is great. We're going to keep on talking how to leave meaningful race conversations in elementary classroom And, of course, we are going to put it in the link. You better go ahead and get it And you know it's about. You know, damn time is what Lizzo says if you have not, but go ahead and pre order. So, other than that, chris and I want to continue to send you love and light and we hope that you hold all that you know and all the people and the children and all the families and other educators. We need you to hold them dear and we want you to hold them tight and we just need you to continue to stand strong in the SEL life. We love you. I'll take it.