007: Building Futures for Queer and Trans Youth with Kimm Topping

EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS:

• Creating physically and emotionally safe, and inclusive educational spaces for queer and trans youth
• Establishing signs visibility for young people to see when they come into their/your building and classroom
• Examining forms, language, and assumptions for heteronormative language that might be exclusionary towards students and families
• Co-creating policy and opportunities for education to change practice towards increased inclusivity
• Approaching students and families with curiosity to learn more about individual experiences

EPISODE RESOURCES:

• Connect with Kimm Topping: Twitter, Instagram, Kimm’s Website
• Safe Schools Program for LGBTQ Students (Massachusetts)
• Trans Student Educational Resources
• Queer Undefined website
• My Rainbow by Trinity Neal

Transcript

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Krista (00:00):

Hello everyone. Welcome to SELinEDU! How are you doing today, Craig?

Craig (00:11):

I am having a pretty good afternoon/evening. I am here with Krista and Kimm! 

Krista (00:26):

Yes. So, for those of you who didn't know, we also put this broadcast up on YouTube. You need to take a look to see Craig dancing away and doing his 360 and you also need to come on so that you could see our special guest today, Kim Topping. Kim is an educator with her masters in education from Harvard. Is that okay? That I did that?

Kimm (00:51):

Yes.

Krista (00:52):

I'm so excited. They are a writer and community organizer who is committed to centering youth voice and leadership. They are currently the program for Safe Schools Program for LGBTQ Students and a joint initiative between the Department of Elementary and Secondary Education and the Massachusetts Commission on LGBTQ development curriculum and organizational change for over 10 years, Kim is currently writing their first full-length book Generation Queer, a book of illustrated biographies, featuring 30 queer and trans youth activists. Thank you so much for being with us today, Kimm.

Kimm (01:32):

Of course, thanks for the introduction. I'm so excited to talk with you.

Craig (01:38):

So Kim, what is igniting for you? What flames of passion are you actually fanning for the world today in regards to what you do?

Kimm (01:54):

What a great question. I mean, what ignites me every day and gets me out of bed is wanting to see a future where queer and trans young people are thriving. That's really it. I want young people, especially queer and trans young people, to have the support and care, and ability to really thrive and pursue whatever it is that they want to pursue. That's really what motivates me. And, I've been a youth worker for about 10 years, and through all the young people that I've met - what's keeping me going is all the young people and their leadership, their activism, their voices, and the educators that are standing alongside them.

Krista (02:33):

In all of these 10 years, can you tell me what your role looks like on a day-to-day basis? Are you in school? Are students coming to different meetings? Are you embedded in the community and working with them there? Tell me what this looks like on a daily basis.

Kimm (02:53):

Yeah, it's so fun because there are so many different elements to it. And our program is really unique because it was the first in the country and I think continues to be the only one that's really state-supported. And so we have a lot of possibilities really to work within policy, train educators, and work directly with student leaders. So every day is very different. One of the things that's been really exciting lately is I get to work with districts who are being really intentional about their work and really careful about how they want to think about institutional policies for supporting LGBTQ students and really communitywide efforts. So, meeting with administrative leadership teams and then figuring out how are we going to train all of the school buildings in your district. How are we going to come up with a plan for gender support plans, for example? So we're really supporting trans students - how are we going to bring families and communities into the conversation? So that's the stuff that I really love - when folks are being super intentional and really thinking about how to involve the whole community in this work.

Craig (03:53):

Yeah. One of the things I appreciate about Kimm… you know, we serve on the same commission. Yes. It's definitely an honor. I'm continuing to learn and find myself inspired by Kimm and her work and just the work and genius of so many others around. It’s been fascinating to hear countless stories in ways that educators and advocates and parents, consultants, people who are pushing, you know boundaries across all kinds of areas of the education experience. Because for me, I know as a young person who knew he was gay early, that it wasn't the safest school, wasn't always the safest place because you didn't have anything visible. Right? Like, people who don't know… I have a wonderful flag here of multiple intersections of culture and race and orientation, and identity, and there wasn't that in the schools I went to. I grew up in a Catholic school.

Craig (05:15):

Definitely we didn't talk about sexuality at my church and or the school, the Catholic school I went to. And then as I got older and went to public school again, there weren't these visible markers that said, Hey, I can go and talk to this teacher or go to this particular place to have these conversations, to explore them. You kind of suffered and silence. And for me, I knew that it was important for me to find a way to find safety within myself. I didn't know how to advocate for myself and I didn't know where my parents stood as well in all of this. And so to know that now, I'm part of a Commission where Kimm, you know, is at the helm of some tremendous work on behalf of an entire state of Massachusetts to ensure that young people like myself have safer spaces where they can thrive is very incredible.

Craig (06:21):

And so I'm really excited that I'm part of just a part of something bigger than myself - that I know Kimm has been serving for a very long time. And so Kimm, I say a lot to say because I know that, in all of this, we also know that hundreds of anti-gay, anti-trans bills have been created, developed, and are sitting in different state legislatures. But in Massachusetts, we have the benefit that we have - I would say -  we're in a place that's further along. And so I'm curious, what has been rewarding for you in the work currently and where are some areas that you're kind of scratching your head and trying to figure out how do you build more coalitions with schools or school leaders?

Kimm (07:23):

Well, thanks for sharing your experience, Craig, I really appreciate that. And I'm so honored to work with you. I love what you shared about visibility. I think that's so important. That's often where we start our training with educators - to ask them what are the signs of visibility that young people are going to see when they come into their, your building, into your classroom? They're looking for safety and all young people deserve safety when they come into their schools. And as educators, we have to really make that visible and obvious, not just in the physical environment, but in how we interact with them. I mean, I think some of the things have been really rewarding, as I say, working with young people and just seeing their leadership and activism. Last Friday, they led a national walkout across the country and it was organized by some of our GSA Student Leadership Council members.

Kimm (08:12):

Within I think a week and a half, we really strategized, organized, and we saw several states across the country, having students walk out and share their voice and say we belong and we are not going to be erased by this harmful legislation. So, for me, that's very activating, very inspiring, and very moving and really keeps me going in this work. And what I think is challenging is seeing the crisis moments that students have around mental health and whether it's housing, not being accepted by their family, considering suicide, we know how much that impacts LGBTQ young people. So that’s what really feels challenging in this work is just worrying about the safety of queer and trans young people and knowing how present that still is for young people. It's something that was very present for me and many of my friends when I was growing up. So to see that continue is really challenging. And also motivating right then continuing to stay in this work so that young people can survive.

Krista (09:27):

So Kim, Craig knows this, but you might not know that I was a high school social studies teacher for 10 years. And so it was always, well, I love social studies, but it was always incredibly important to me that my students felt physically and emotionally safe coming into the room and that there was not a topic that was off-limits. I wanted them to be able to feel comfortable and be who they wanted to be on any given day. And so oftentimes we had conversations where even if it was in small groups or just one on one. I think that when you talk about earlier, you talked about policies and working with school leaders. Some of the things in my experience that students have told me have helped is a willingness to engage in conversation to validate their experiences. And I'm in Pennsylvania. 

And I actually just posted something today about, it was a meme with Florida that says, gay, gay, gay, gay, gay all over the state of Florida and somebody posted about, you know, well, I don't see what the big deal about this bill is. That the bill is saying you can't talk about sexuality in school with kindergarteners to third graders. And, I'm feeling like they're missing the point, because what if I have a child in the school and my partner is not heterosexual, or I'm not heterosexual. And I can't, my child can't talk about their parents or have books in the classroom that are representing many different forms of families and support systems. Thinking about students at the high school level, not being able to show their affection for somebody by holding their hand, walking down the hallway, like so many other students do, or not feeling comfortable using a bathroom of their choice.

Krista (11:33):

And it amazes me in so much of my work and working with students too, that it seems like it's the adults who kind of put their fears on the school systems. And when I talk with kids, they seem to be more open to each other and to learning about one another.  What are some of those policies that you are seeing that schools need to maybe relook at to really ensure that there's a physically and emotionally safe space for all students? And what can individual teachers like me at the high school or at the elementary schools do to continue to serve and validate students and allow them to be authentically who they are?

Kimm (12:30):

Yeah. Well, I love where you started with that, which is people's lack of understanding about the impact of this legislation because I think that really illustrates why we're concerned about the legislation in the first place. Most people don't know LGBTQ history because we never learned about LGBTQ people in school, right? And so that's why there's so much fear around not being able to have access to that in schools. We know that that's already not happening in so many cases. And so to then legislate that further and silence people further, that's really dangerous. LGBTQ people have been around forever and there's so much history and just a wealth of experience and so much that we can learn from the community that I think is really a missed opportunity in our schools right now. So one of the things that we've been talking a lot with educators is curriculum and how they can make their classrooms more LGBTQ inclusive.

Kimm (13:24):

So, you know, highlighting the stories of Baynard Rustin, James Baldwin, Mercy Johnson, Sylvia Rivera, Sally Ride, or Frida Kahlo - people that actually probably already show up in our curriculum in some way, but we haven't really acknowledged this core part of their identity. So simply acknowledging that can really create visibility and allow the LGBTQ people, young people in our classroom to feel seen. So, that's one of the policies. And then I think also, in Massachusetts, the student anti-discrimination law was updated in 1993 to add sexual orientation and in 2012 to add gender identity. We know that even just including the words in a policy actually changes the behavior of a school system. That has really made a difference because it also led to some guidance for schools to help them understand how you actually protect LGBTQ students. And that helps us to then meet with educators and share some of that guidance. So I think that's really a model for other states to be thinking about is, first of all, making sure students are protected by their anti-discrimination law. And then, what are the things that we actually recommend to educators to help them do that and help them be supportive educators?

Krista (14:39):

Thank you.

Craig (14:40):

Yeah. I'm curious, Kim, who stood in the gap for you? Who helped to you know, at some point in your development, someone you encountered, or you were experiencing, an affirmation or acceptance that ignited you to be who you are today? Could you share a little bit more about who that person or those people are?

Kimm (15:07):

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so many incredible people come to mind. I definitely had family members that were very supportive and gave me a safe place to land. And that early on really meant a lot to me. And then early in my career, the first mentor that I had was the Executive Director at the nonprofit that I was working at. And she just had this spirit of allowing me to be a learner and really trusting in me. And there were no boundaries around like, you can't learn this because you are this age or this is your role or whatever it might be. She sent me to trainings to learn about fundraising. That's not what I'm doing now, but it was relevant because I got to understand how nonprofit worked and it just… it felt very empowering to be at that age to be a young person and to feel like I could explore those things and I would be supported in it. So, I really carry that with me when I work with young people now to not put limitations on what they can learn or explore and to just really support them in their curiosity. So important.

Craig (16:14):

Yeah. My professor, her photo is up here. She's going to love me for this, but her name is Dr. Felicia Wilson, and she's still in my life. She was my college professor. And, when I went to university, which is up behind me for those who can't see, and so by the time I got to college, I was clear. I know what's up and, you know, still navigating the complexity of being a gay or queer Black man in New Orleans, Louisiana… which was definitely more liberal, but also in education. I talked to her about five years after and said, ‘I am.’ And she was like, ‘All of us knew as professors, we all knew what you were in regards to my sexuality.’

Craig (17:06):

She was like, that's your thing that you have to navigate. If you want, we can talk about it. I mean, we love you, but that's all on you. And so I was like, whoa. She was like, did you think it was a secret? I was like, ha, this is something. And we had had several conversations after that… is that she understood that role in my life was to foster a level of love and a love for me and what I shared was my vision. And so she was putting things in place to help me get closer into my vision. And my sexuality was something I was exploring and navigating, but she always let me know that no matter how I showed up, she loved me.

Craig (17:53):

And then when I shared this additional context, she… it was like, oh yeah, we all knew. And it was like, it was already understood that my professors already knew that part of me and were still pushing me even further. And then to help fill in some blanks for me, in regards to having an understand that I was actually being measured or engaged with in my fullness, even when I wasn't sure who I was… that they knew. And they still were like, yep. And we’ve got all these other things we see in you that we're trying to elevate. And that was very powerful for me. So thank you for sharing Kimm. And, it just inspired me to share even more about my own experience.

Kimm (18:45):

Thank you, Craig. I appreciate that. And so much. And it just remind me too… I had a teacher in seventh grade… At the time, I cut my hair by myself. I cut it really short. It was a hot mess. Like it was not cute, but the next morning she, she was like, your hair looks great. You know, like she just gave me a compliment because she could feel my insecurity around it. And it was also around my gender that I was like cutting my hair and exploring things like that. And it was just so affirming. So sometimes it's just those little comments that make you feel seen, make you feel full. So I resonate with that. Thank you.

Craig (19:20):

Thank you.

Krista (19:21):

Craig. One of the things that you said, and Kimm, something that you had brought up as well… we talked about identity and we talked about sexuality and for me, one of my journeys of learning, was when my ex-husband's aunt came out as transgender and I'm like, wait, what does this mean? What is going on? And, and I'll admit that I had preconceived notions and biases around what, and I spent a lot of time wondering “What does this mean for her wife?” And, and then after a while I realized that that was my need to have an understanding, to put a label on it…. a “me-thing” to try to find that out. And I'm like, “It doesn't matter.” I think that labels are one thing, but trying to understand a perspective and understand where somebody's coming from and learn more information is important. And so that led me to want to explore and learn about the different facets of gender. And would you be willing to maybe help us understand that the relationship, when we talk about gender… that we have a biological sex and then there's sexuality and there's expression and there's identity. I'd love to hear kind of your view or what resources you would recommend. People who want to learn more on the topic can go to.

Kimm (20:41):

Yeah, absolutely. And it's constantly evolving. There are so many ways that people understand who they are and there's different words to express that. So one of the things I always encourage folks around is not to feel like you have to understand or memorize every term. But what you can do is approach folks with curiosity. And so when a young person comes out to you, that's an honor that they've trusted you. And so to say, thank you so much for doing that. And do you want to share more with me about what that means for you? If you identify as transgender, as gender fluid, as non-binary… tell me more about your experience, because it's going be very unique, and different for, for every person. I would say, trans student educational resources is a great resource that was created by trans young people.

Kimm (21:26):

So I love turning to them for their resources. There's also this really cool, crowdsource database called queer undefined where you can look up any term. If you were to go to that website right now and search for gender fluid, you'd probably see a hundred different definitions of how folks describe being genderfluid, which is a term that I use for myself. But again, it just varies from person to person. So it's really fun and interesting to learn about how people describe themselves. But yeah, we've been taught this kind of traditional model that, sex and gender are synonymous, which they're not. So, you know, when someone's expecting a baby people ask, oh, is it a boy or a girl? What are you expecting? Really, what they're asking about is is the sex of that child. All we really know is around biology, genitalia when a child is born. That doesn't always align with gender identity. And there are so many ways that we as human beings understand gender and gender identity.

Krista (22:24):

Yeah. I used to teach a course for a university. First, it was called Teaching to Diversity. Then they called it Culturally Relevant Teaching or Pedagogy. But I would tell them stories that I have two boys and a bonus son who are now later teenagers, but my middle, when he was in kindergarten, he was into pink, everything. Everything. And he really wanted a pink umbrella to take to school. And I had this fear for him taking a pink umbrella into school and how people would respond to him, but also wanting to honor that it's a color. It’s a color, no big deal. But that just sits with me and, as a parent, wanting to protect your children from people who are out there who might have whatever preconceived notions they want to put on a child who is in kindergarten and wants a pink umbrella pink.

Krista (23:27):

Right. And looking back… So what I did… I'll be fully honest. What I did in the moment was I got him a red umbrella. But looking back, and knowing what I know… this isn't anything on who he is as an individual, but back then as a kindergartner, like - just get him to pink umbrella. He liked pink, get him the pink umbrella. But, just the gender norms that we put onto people and colors and parties and things like that really force people into a way that might not be for them.

Kimm (24:07):

Yeah. Well, and I think those are those really critical moments as educators, we can interrupt and just normalize, like anyone can like pink, you know. Just kind of open it up and expand it and just be creative and more expansive in our thinking. And what you named is also very real that there are fears around it or bullying or how people are going to react to these things because it is very loaded within our culture. So that's valid too. Right. And so that's part of our work with parents and families is to help them through some of those fears and concerns and get to know other queer and trans people and parents to see some of those possibilities. So I'm glad you brought that up. I always say this to educators, we just make this stuff up around gender and expectations and these roles. We make this stuff up as people. And so it's changeable and it has changed over time. Our expectations around different associations with color or roles that has absolutely changed over time. So there's lots of flexibility and creativity.

Craig (25:11):

Yeah. I think it's that people feel vulnerable, especially I know for my parents, they didn't know what to do because there's no manual. I'm like, but there was no manual regardless because I was going to be who I was going to be and it was going to be with all of the wonderful, unique things that comes with it. You don't know, you just kind of roll with it. And I do. I mean, being a school leader and an educator for 20 plus years now and knowing how many conversations I've had, every parent I've ever encountered was concerned about the safety and wellbeing of their young person and hoping that they would be better than their parents. They want their kids to be safe and loved. And there there's an expectation the school is going to love the young person in the best ways that we can. 

And so, as I think about the fact that you are going to be publishing an incredible book soon called Generation Queer, like talk to us about it. What is it, can we get a little teaser on this book? This my first time actually asking you this question and we've been engaged for a bit on the Commission work.

Kimm (26:32):

Yeah! This is giving me life right now because I'm interviewing everyone for the book right now. So it's so energizing. Generation Queer will be the first collection of illustrated biographies about queer and trans youth activists specifically. So it'll be out next year from Tu Books. And, my whole heart is in this book. It's like the book that I really wanted as a young person when I was searching for queer and trans history, when I felt like I was the only one and I just didn't know all of the history of who we are. So that's really part of it. It is kind of introducing young people to just little snippet of the history. So they get curious and do their research and then to introduce them to these 30 activists who are currently doing amazing work around the community organizing the arts.

Kimm (27:25):

So those are kind of the three topics that are highlighted in the book. And, young people like Trinity Neal who just came out with a book called My Rainbow, which is absolutely beautiful and great for elementary educators, Skylar Baylor, who's an athlete and a public speaker, and Gavin Grimm who has worked with ACLU to fight back against some of the discrimination that he face as a young person - just phenomenal human beings. So I'm so excited for young people to be able to see themselves and to learn about other young people.

Krista 

Your book is going to have such a powerful impact for our youth.

Kimm (29:57):

Thank you so much. And that's exactly it. While we have these gaps in our education, young people are turning to other young people who are creating YouTube videos to learn about gender affirming care. That's information they should be getting from a doctor, right? And should be getting from educators to get the best information possible. It's also great to see people having that directed experience and I fully support that. I think it also highlights all the work that we need to be doing in our schools too.

Craig (30:30):

I would love to lean in a little bit more Kimm. One of the things that I've heard from a number of teachers and, and this came at a pinnacle, a number of years ago - probably eight years ago. I was a school leader, a principal, we had our first trans student that we had known joined us and, this particular student, chose to present themselves with more masculine qualities… born biologically a girl, but had chosen to present more, in their opinion masculine. And so, the question was, which restroom? You know, first question, well, there's a lot of questions we ask, so first, we ask how should we call you? What is the name that you will respond to? What's important to you that we should hold dear as well? So parts of that was, I am “X” student and, I want to be considered a boy, and I want you to also let me go to the boys' bathroom. Okay. I'm like, okay, there's also this other restroom, if this works for you. And they were like, no, I'm cool. I think I'll be fine. The parent was not necessarily with it in regards to our electing to take our cue from this particular student. We'll call the student Jay, and had a different perspective and also narrated Jay differently in our presence. And I'm like, well, I hear you; you have your perspective. I have mine. 

But what I found interesting was the evolution for my staff who had not encountered a trans student that they served and, the host of questions that came up for them. And so they found themselves tripping over themselves to do things because they didn't know how to go about engaging. They didn't know how to create the kind of inclusive, welcoming experience that Jay deserves and other students that will come - and who came - after Jay. And for those teachers and school leaders who are afraid to get it wrong, may be afraid of how they're going to be perceived by their peers or their community. But they want to stand up and do the right thing to create a more LGBTQ inclusive space or community for young people, no matter whether or not they're in the building now, or they're welcoming them down the line. What would be some of your recommendations to teachers and school leaders who are trying to get it right?

Kimm (33:33):

Yeah. Well, all of this connects to social emotional learning and having a growth mindset and that adults are still learning, right? Sometimes we forget that in this traditional model of education, adults are supposed to be the experts and have all the answers. That's absolutely not right. And so it's okay to model for young people that we're learning and that we make mistakes and just to correct ourselves and move on and really that's it. We don't need to over apologize or over-explain because that can make young people really uncomfortable. But instead just correct ourselves, move on, and continue to do our learning. I think can be really impactful. So that's often how I start most trainings is to say that I want folks to build their confidence because this is a topic that is so steeped in silence and stigma. There is a lot of uncertainty that people feel because they haven't practiced the language enough or they don't have enough people in their lives who are LGBTQ. And so they don't have that familiarity. There can be this awkwardness, nervousness, and fear of getting it wrong. It really takes a lot of practice to build our confidence. So I think, correcting ourselves, moving on, and just continuing to do that. Learning is so important.

Krista (34:56):

I think one of the things that you just tapped into… Well, first I appreciate you bringing it back to a growth mindset and because we're constantly learning and language and people are always evolving and so it's never stagnant. It's always, “What can I do to continue learning and growing?” But I think that part of our roles as educators is to honor and help our students find out their strengths, their identities, and honor that whatever it is  and allow them to be physically and emotionally safe in a classroom. Because we know that if students are not physically and emotionally safe, they are not going to learn to their highest capacity. Right? So when people would push back on me for anything - dialogue or conversations I'd have in my classroom or ways of addressing and interacting with students - I would take it back to brain science and that I want all of my students to be as successful as they possibly can.

And that starts with them being able to walk into my room, know that they're physically and emotionally safe and that they're honored for who they are. And I think it comes back to, you mentioned fear of not knowing. I work with the school district near me where the high school's named after Baynard Rustin. A colleague asked the students and they have no idea who he is and his work; it's just a name that's on the building. And how can we have those conversations and give students that full history? But I also think too, it's unpacking our own individual fears. I know even within a small family circle, like talking about bathrooms - “Well, I wouldn't want somebody who is not my biological sex to come into this bathroom.” I'm like, well, take a look at this picture. This is my friend. Do you want him coming into the female bathroom? He doesn't look female. And so having that cognitive dissonance, I mean, I think like what they think in their mind it's going to be versus the reality can help shift some of those misperceptions that people might have. Do you do any work when you're working with adults or students around, how do you unpack that fear and, and maybe have them think about challenging thoughts that they've held onto?

Kimm (37:30):

Yeah. I mean, I try to validate it and just recognize that it's very common. So one of the discussion questions that I often use and brainstorm with folks is what are ways that schools are unnecessarily gendered and heteronormative. And so to take a moment to really think through all the ways that our school systems unnecessarily group students by gender. Or, assume that when you meet a student for the first time and you say, “oh, can you tell me about mom and dad at home?” That's a heteronormative assumption also makes a lot of other options about family structure at home. And so it's often unconscious just things that we've learned through tradition. And so we have to be really intentional about unlearning that. So I think just making space to openly talk about it makes a huge difference. And just to validate that that's very common that people are experiencing that because of the issue that we talked about earlier… we're not getting that education, not getting that visibility. And so this continues to be a significant part of our culture that we need to unpack.

Craig (38:31):

Yeah. I would also add, for school leaders, there's some opportunities for us even on forms to make sure that it's representative for our non-binary scholars and also instead of using male or female. And to identify parents, you could say, “your parent or guardian” and leaving that completely open. Because we don't know what we're going to find. It may be that you have a parent who identifies as a queer or a non-binary and where do we make space for that? I know that sometimes those are the things that are incredibly visible. What we don't know as a school community is that people are looking at that and looking for safety when they look at some of the forms that we have, or some of the language that we include on our website. That's some stuff that I'm thinking about right now. I know our school community has made strides, but we definitely have a lot more work to do in order to make our school community LGBTQ inclusive, even out in the public. Not to say that it's because I have a flag here, but also outwardly - what are some ways that we can we can deepen that work across our channels? 

Kimm (39:51):

Yeah. Well, I think that's really the next step is we understand what the gaps are and then we create those policies and change our practices. And I was just reflecting on what I said. And I was like, wait, I don't validate everyone's feelings around certain things, because some things are also inaccurate. When we have a very strict gender binary forms, for example, that doesn't reflect all of our students or when there are these fears around harassment in the bathroom, the reality is that trans people are most often harassed in the bathroom. And that's really our main concern around safety. So, you know, validate what's missing, but also provide that information and clarity for folks in education.

Krista (40:32):

I think in hearing both of you too, it comes back to me as a high school teacher. I don't necessarily get a chance to influence policy all the time, but I can alter my practice. Sure. And I'll tell you that in my first couple years, I used to start class with “ladies and gentlemen.” And I think, Dr. Maya Angelou said, and I’m paraphrasing, “when you know, better do better.” And so I don't want to start classes like that, even adult classes. And Craig, I know that you use the term “folks” and I use that quite a bit too. How can I think of something that is more inclusive for everybody, beyond the fact that - the more I thought about it - all the stigma that goes with being a lady I'm like, I don't even know if I want that myself!

You know, there was somebody who asked me, why do I have to change my language to make small groups of people [students] feel comfortable? I'm like, that's your role? Your job is to create that physically and emotionally safe environment. If all I have to do is change my language, I will keep practicing until I get it right. So that there isn't somebody there who doesn't feel included. And I think that we can all do little bits and we're all continuing to learn and to grow. And I'm sure, you know, 10 years from now I'll look back and be like, oh, in that podcast, I said this and I shouldn't, I know better. 

Kimm (42:08):

Same, no, we're all learning and growing and changing all the time. Yeah, definitely.

Craig (42:13):

Yeah. so I know we could keep going because that's what we do, but you know, I know that you probably you would love to enjoy whatever is going on outside. Maybe some sunshine. I don't know. But, if there is nothing else that people take away from today from you, if there's something you want to make sure is a gem that people hold onto as they continue to do their own internal work and also externally - just blow the socks off of so many people and create these inclusive spaces where we all believe our young people deserve. What is the one thing you want people to take away from today’s podcast?

Kimm (43:02):

I think the one thing is that when we're talking about LGBTQ youth care for them is life saving. It's suicide prevention really. So often, our work as educators is to create spaces where young people can really thrive and live fully. So I think that's really the takeaway that I want to share and also to let people know that they're capable of doing. They can have the confidence and the skills to be able to support LGBTQ young people. And there are so many resources out there to support them. So to seek them out and talk with your colleagues, with your friends, with your family, and do that learning so that young people feel really seen and supported by you.

Craig (43:43):

Thank you.

Krista (43:44):

Thank you. Keep an eye out for Kimm's book coming out in 2023 Generation Queer. You also have an article in Women's Policy Journal, Towards an LGBTQ+ Inclusive History Curriculum in Massachusetts and Mapping Feminist Cambridge: Inman Square in 2019 Cambridge Women's Commission. 

Thank you, Kimm. for your time. We look forward to being able to connect people to you and to your resources. How can people find you on social media if they'd like to connect with you more?

Kimm (44:34):

Yeah, I'm at @KimmWrites on Instagram and Twitter and my website is KimmTopping.com.

Krista (44:43):

Thank you so much.

Kimm (44:44):

Thank you. Appreciate it.

Craig (44:48):

All right, family. So it has been amazing. We just want you to continue to be awesome in all that you are and all that you do. We're so glad that Kimm joined us today. And so, we will continue to and shower you all with all the love we can. Please continue to stand in the light.